My Personal View of the S3, etc.

[Tom Nolle]

I love my S2, make no mistake, and I'm planning to get a second digital back in the next six months or so. I've been looking at all the discussions on the D70, the almost-S3, and the largely hypothetical D2X, and I wanted to post my views for comment.

First, the D70 sets the bar for the current generation of DSLR. At a thousand bucks, it offers faster focusing than the S2, faster writing to CF, and resolution in RAW mode that's at least very close. It also supports compressed NEFs so you can get a lot on a card. If you're going to get a "not-D70", you've got to have something more.

Fuji says that S3 2will have a 6 MP CCD that's "doubled" up to provide extra bits per pixel to increase dynamic range. That's interesting, but it's hard to interpret exactly what it would mean. Clearly you can't get more "range" out of an image once it's converted and mapped to the destination color space, so it must mean that you'll have more latitude during conversion. That's helpful in some situations, but it's not possible to say how many.

On the downside, the S3 will shoot 24 MB RAW files. Since the fastest cards these days are about 8 MBps, it will take about 3 seconds to write such a file, which means that the S3 would need a much bigger buffer to shoot a burst, and its over-time-average shooting speed will be less.

The D2X is likely to have at least a little more resolution than the S3, and will likely support faster writing (proportional to the D70 speed according to the D2x resolution versus D70). It's also a pro body with even better AF and metering. We don't know its cost.

My thought is that if the S3 can solve the problem of writing to CF quick enough to shoot a long burst, it's possible for Fuji to price it in the $1500 range and make it competitive with the D70 if the superCCD concept is good. If it can't be made to write pretty fast, it's going to be like the Kodak SLR/n--a studio camera. If the D2x writes fast, has at least 8MP resolution, and costs less than about $6000 it would be hard to pass up.

Tom

[Andre]

I suspect that the image quality will be at least as good as the S2, and probably better.

Apart from that, and the removal of the silly dual battery requirement, the improvements don't look much like it was worth issuing a new model.

I won't be rushing out to buy one. If my S2 breaks I might buy one, but until then, it does not look worth it to me.

[Tom Nolle]

I agree with your points, Andre. Apart from the CCD what Fuji has announced are largely cosmetic changes. The value of the CCD changes is hard to assess without images, but the price of the change is a doubling of the RAW size. All other factors being equal, that would halve the burst rate for shooting and the long-haul shots-per-minute rate as well. That seems to me to mean that the credibility of the S3 will depend on two things; can Fuji match the focus speed improvements of the D70, and can they also improve the write performance? It seems to me that doing anything significant in write performance means compressing the RAWs, since the file size is so big.

If the S3 was able to match the D70 in writing pure 12 MB RAW files, could also compress RAWs, and the superCCD offered some benefits, I'd really look hard at it for about $1500. If it can't do that, then it would be hard for me to get it at any price over the D70's. I'm kind of thinking that if the D2x came in where the rumor has it in features, and was priced about $4000, I'd probably get it over an S3 even if the improvements I talked about above were made. If the D2x was more than that, I'd have to look at the "super-S3" at $1500. If the D2x is really expensive and the S3 doesn't hold up, I'm getting a D70!

Tom

[Andre]

My suspicion is that they will have increased the write performance. The S2 could not take advantage of speed enhancing tricks used in the faster CF cards (like Write Acceleration), thus was unable to write multiple sectors at once. I'll bet they've included that in the S3.

[Tom Nolle]

I hope so. I'd really love to be able to get an S3 as my second back, since I'm very happy with the S2. The write issue would be a deal-breaker for me. Even the S2 has run dry on me twice when I really wanted to shoot more.

Tom

[ballroom_boy]

I agree with the above - for the S3 to an option for me in the future, the image it produces better be *unbelievable* compared to the S2, as the body improvements are marginal. Tom also brings up an excellent point about CF write speed too - the S2 is really slow compared to the D70.

My S2's produce excellent images already, so to "upgrade", it would really have to be worth my while. Especially since we lose normal TTL flash capability (which is a bit of a kludge anyway) and will have to invest in DX speedlights with the S3. Part of the reason I went with the S2 was because I could use my film body speedlights (SB-25, SB-26).

I am really curious to see what the D2X (or whatever it is called) looks and feels like. If Nikon puts a decent high resolution sensor (my guess it will be 12 mpx to "outdo" Canon) in a D2H body, they will hit a home run in the professional ranks - or, with people with lots of $ or big credit limits...

My 2 pennies...

[Linda G]

I keep getting told the new S3's images are more like negative film than digital has been in the past--more like transparency film.

We'll see. You also make a valid point in the time factor for writing to the card.

I will say the S2 still beats the D70 in color and some new users have lamented they have to work more with the D70 files to get usable images in a studio setting.

[S_Leeper]

I suspect that fuji's goal with the S3 is to sell to new converts of dslr, or to dslr converts. If they thought that most S2 users would upgrade then they have problems... with the possible exception of a small percentage I don't believe most S2 users will be able to justify the upgrade.

However, I do believe that once the S3 & D2X are out that f-mount lens users will have a more effectively balanced selection of bodies between the D70, D2X, 14n & S3.
I also think that in 2-3 years we will see some very interesting alternatives, even with the same basic technology.

[arista]

I am currently running a D70 and an S2. I will look forward to the S3 and the D2 whatever, but I think it would need to blow me out of the water to want to upgrade. I have been very and continually impressed by both of my current cameras.

All technology changes of course, I just cannot see lots of people running out ot get the S3, for reason stated above. I rarely get a case of the galloping gotta haves, and I cannot see me getting them with new models.

I think I am more likely to think of upgrading when the S4 or S5 comes out, I know my current cameras wont be worth anythinf then, but also by then the amount of technological change will be awesome.

Just my thought, sorry to ramble.

Cheers

Tony (Tamworth NSW)

[Igor]

I'd like to add that after getting used to the SLR/n and comparing the images to the D70 and S2, I can't imagine better image quality possible for NON-full frame sensor.
We'll see of course, but I am NOT sure I'll buy any "cropped-sensor" cameras anymore :)
Medium-format digital backs of 22mp look much more appealing IMO (no, no, I won't be posting shots taken with $20,000 Phase-One back tomorrow :lol: )

[Wilm]

I also would like to add my comments about the S3

1st : I have learned never to change a computer for the newest model. It is more expensive related to the increase of functionality.

2nd : The S2 provides 16-bit pictures when using Raw. That moment I am spending 12 MB for a picture it doubles my (color)-resolution instead of JPEG.

3rd: What I am looking for ?
Do I really need more resolution, more colorspace compared to a standard-film ? I don't ! My pictures are in that quality I expect them. I will spend more money in lenses the next time and maybe later, also in bodies.


Thoughts of a hobby-shooter, not of a pro .....


:cheers:
Wilm

[Tom Nolle]

That's kind of my view, Wilm. I think that the extra dynamic range will be useful in some situations, but in nearly every case I have enough range now. Igor, I really liked the SLR/n image quality, but you and pretty much everyone else says that it's really slow in writing to disk, which is a killer for me in wildlife shots.

Tom

[SSonnentag]

I haven't heard anyone here mention the S3's losing the optical viewfinder and going with an LCD viewfinder. I don't see the advantage to the LCD over the optical. There's always a delay with LCD screens, so tracking a moving object would be next to impossible. I always found focusing with an LCD vs an optical lens to be more difficult as well. What is Fuji thinking here?

Shawn

[Keith Cocker]

I haven't heard anyone here mention the S3's losing the optical viewfinder and going with an LCD viewfinder. I don't see the advantage to the LCD over the optical. There's always a delay with LCD screens, so tracking a moving object would be next to impossible. I always found focusing with an LCD vs an optical lens to be more difficult as well. What is Fuji thinking here?

Shawn

Shawn,

I don't think that the S3 is loosing the optical viefinder. Where did you see that? If it was the case it would be suicide for the model. It would cease to be an SLR !!

[SSonnentag]

OK, you're absolutely correct. I went back and reread the brochure. I was thrown off by the "Dual LCD" portion combined with both the LCD screen and veiwfinder both having 100% coverage. The S2/S3 do, indeed, have multiple LCD screens, but they really have THREE LCD displays, plus the LCD info overlayed on the viewfinder. :D

Shawn

[HulaMike]

the weirdest thing about the S3 is that it switched to D-TTL.

I'm like most here, I'm quite happy with my S2 and the image it produces for now. I've adjusted to the cheapie body, dual batteries, max flash sync at 1/125.

I used to think full frame would be necessary for me to upgrade but now I'm not so sure. I think it's entirely possible that full frame digitals like the slr/n may become the dynosaurs, not the other way around. A look at all the new lenses optomized for APS sized sensors can lead you down that path. Full frame digital exists for one reason; professional photographers, publishers and designers became familiar with the footprint. But the growth market in digital are newbies jumping from point-n-shoots to interchangeable lenses. Typically they don't have a slew of wide 35mm lenses to marry to a sensor. They'll buy new Dx lenses. This will drive R&D and the marketing dynamic of the future much like the current state of affairs that has Kodak abandoning film.

So that leaves me with a gut feeling to wait out any upgrade for maybe the next two cycles to see how things shake out. Hell, my old manual F2's were and still ARE great cameras! I will enjoy using my S2 until something really heart-stopping happens.......square sensor anyone?

[S_Leeper]

. . .But the growth market in digital are newbies jumping from point-n-shoots to interchangeable lenses. Typically they don't have a slew of wide 35mm lenses to marry to a sensor. They'll buy new Dx lenses. This will drive R&D and the marketing dynamic of the future much like the current state of affairs that has Kodak abandoning film.

Good point, but can the marketing efforts keep the focus on pixel quality & not pixel count... and one way to increase the count is to increase the size. i.e. if the S2 sensor were expanded to full size the count would go from 6mp to 14+mp (like the Kodak).

But I do believe that the APS sized sensor is here to stay, to provide photographers with another level of choices--sort of like midsized cars.

I also think/hope that the cameras will start to become somewhat modular, like computers, where the purchaser will have a fair amount of latitude in selecting the sensor, buffer, viewfinder, shutter & a fair number of bodies.

[Swampy]

.......square sensor anyone?

So what happened to the DCS645 Kodak digital back? 16mp square and they discontinued it faster than the hype before it was released was out. I shot with it (and still can if I want) and it's the best output I've ever seen before.

[Swampy]

I also think/hope that the cameras will start to become somewhat modular, like computers, where the purchaser will have a fair amount of latitude in selecting the sensor, buffer, viewfinder, shutter & a fair number of bodies.

Now we're talkin. I'd like a few gigs of buffer myself thank you.

[Ruffles]

Why do camera manufactures seem to skimp on buffer memory? Isn't memory dirt cheap these days? What type of ram do most cameras use?

[S_Leeper]

...Full frame digital exists for one reason; professional photographers, publishers and designers became familiar with the footprint.
Not to take the above out of context...
But the other day, as I was taking a shot, I realized that one big advantage for many hobbyists with full frame would also be to more effectively control shallow dof's. i.e. when shooting (with the camera) my neighbor the other day I realized that I was increasing my dof as I backed up, in effect "adding" one f/stop of dof to my shot.

The above being said I'm not planning to run out & buy a full frame this year or next.