An odd S2 glitch - looking for others experience

[saranugent]

Hello -
I've had my S2 since the first of March - actually this is the second body - the first one had a strange dark line across the top of all files saved. The second one appeared to be fine for the first 200-300 pictures.
Last weekend while shooting a dog show, the camera started back focusing badly - subject out of focus and background 100' away sharp. Then, about 1/2 of the files appear to have a moire pattern in all the dark areas over the entire file. This shows up in the red and blue channels but doesn't appear in the the green channel. It looks like a jagged squiggly overall pattern and is made only slightly less offensive by using Fred Miranda's Photoshop Action to reduce moire. Of course his action is not meant to correct an overall pattern. I was left with several hundred unprintable unsellable photos.
It's been to Fuji to be fixed, and is supposed to be coming back "adjusted" - whatever that means.
I've not read of anything like this in my forum searches - some back focusing, but not the overall moire.
Has anyone else had this problem? And if so, was it "fixed" or replaced with another unit by Fuji?
I am very uneasy using this camera professionally now. I lost a lot of money because of ruined pictures and am not sure I want to trust this camera now.
Thanks, (this message was also posted on Rob Galbraith forums)
Sara

[lightwrangler]

While I have not experienced the exact problems you are describing, I would be interested in seeing some examples. This would give me and others on this forum a better idea of what you are experiencing. The focus situation you describe I am aware of and have had some issues with in low light levels - but that doesn't sound like your case. In my case I can easily compensate by watching for the focus indicator in the viewfinder.

The moiré issue is something that is of concern to me, since one of the reasons I choose this camera over others was the LACK of moiré and lack of artifacting. Your description sounds like it may not be moiré - but I'd really have to see it to say for sure. Did you send samples to Fuji? If so, what was their reaction?

In any case I can certainly appreciate your distress especially when you have suffered a financial loss. Although it may be of no consolation, there are many shooters out there who are very happy with their S2s and it works well for them. Show us some shots and maybe some people on this forum can help to make you happy with yours.

[saranugent]

I just got the camera back 10 minutes ago from Fuji - The repair ticket makes no mention of the moire at all - although I sent them a cd with sample of it. I am trying to call them to see if they even addressed that.

I will try to figure out how to post a sample to this site. If it comes through, it may be visible on the color, but it is very very visible on the red and blue channel and definitely shows on the prints made.

Update: I finally got it posted on the gallery page it's under moire on my personal gallery. I just posted the red channel so you can see the problem. It's over the red and blue channel, but not on the green. shows up as blue/yellow overall just as you see it here in black & white.

Sara

[bjnicholls]

Something is wrong with image files on this server, the icon for "post reply" won't download for this page, your photo sample isn't downloading either.

In the Rob Galbraith forum you mention a pattern. That could be track noise. I see it in some images and it has been documented by several people. Fuji doesn't acknowedge or deny it exists.

I'll try to see your image file when the server here gets over the slows...

[steve bingham]

6:00 Saturday (Paific Time) morning this site still won't download images. Sigh.

Your moire problem might not relate to the camera. Did you shoot in jpg, tiff, or raw? If raw, what convertor was used? Does this happen all the time? Fast shutter speeds? Slow shutter speeds? All lenses? Any error messages? Are your batteries working? (both sets). If the CR123s are weak you can sometimes get strange results. Remove totally and see if the problem is still there. Your camera will operate just fine without them, just no onboard flash function. However, I have discovered when they are weak or dead and left IN THE CAMERA weird things can happen. They sure don't mention this in the manual!!!

Lastly, a faulty microdrive or Smart Media card could be causing problems. Which are you using? Not all media are created equal!!!!! This could account for why Fuji saw no problem.

[saranugent]

I was shooting in the largest jpg. No - it doesn't happen all the time - over the weekend I took about 400 shots. It got worse as the weekend progressed. There would be one good one, then 3-4 bad, then 1-2 good, more bad, etc. Shutter was 1/90 and or 1/125 (depending on what I chose-didn't seem to relate) Same lens on all shots -Nikon AFS 24-85 zoom, set f8. CR123's fresh on first morning. Vivitar 283 (newer, should not be too much voltage)attached to pc connection - Digital Camera Battery-powering camera. I used 3 different CF cards. Bad images appeared on more than 1 card.

I've only had the camera since about mid-March. It's been fine until now. I am thinking it may be an intermittant electrical problem. But I don't know that it is caused by the Digital Camera Battery - it could be within the camera itself.

I will be taking lots of experimental photos this weekend, with and without the battery pack, but I would really like to hear if anyone else has had a problem like this -
either with the camera, or with Digital Camera Battery. I've just dropped a bundle on this - and I need to get it to work in a way I can rely on. I don't know about using a camera with an intermittant problem in a professional environment.

Please anyone, take a look at what I posted for a sample in the gallery - titled moire - and tell me if you've ever seen this happen. Again, it's a greyscale file of the red channel of a color photo - but it shows the zigzaggy pattern that Fuji says is NOT moire - (but I don't know what to call it)

Thanks,
Sara

[steve bingham]

10:45 a.m. PST

Still can't download photos. Maybe you can e-mail it to me.
steve@dustylens.com

www.dustylens.com

[lightwrangler]

It's too even a pattern to be moiré, but I'm not sure what this is. Could it be a tracking problem? - I don't know. The interesting thing is that outside the door in the background, there doesn't seem to be a pattern. Which leads me to ask, could this be related to colour temperature, specifically the temperature of the indoor lights? But you have already stated that this is not a consistent problem and that other shots that you made at the same time, worked out fine. Was there a filter on your lens?

[saranugent]

No filter used. I've ordered a UV filter, but not here yet. The pattern is not on the dog or other light areas, but there is some on the people's hair and face of woman (which is darker skinned). Seems to be everywhere in mid to dark areas.

I took about 400 photos in that arena. I have maybe 100 with this. Not all consecutive shots. Arena has two open sides and two solid (with overhead door in the one showing). Lots of daylight coming in from 2 sides that day. Didn't seem to matter which part of the arena I was in . The green channel is clear of the pattern on all the shots. Some shots are worse than others.

It's odd, isn't it.

Sara

[lightwrangler]

I am still willing to bet that the existing light had something to do with this pattern. I've had moiré problems in past cameras and this doesn't look like any of it. It does look like the tracking issue that has been discussed before.

There are others on this forum more conversant with the tracking issue than I. The question I have for them is; What if the camera was incorrectly set for colour temperature and/or the existing light was something that had a limited spectrum (like sodium vapour or high intensity discharge), could this kind of tracking pattern be created as a result?

Two factors are leading me to this question;
1) the lack of pattern in the daylight area
2) A lot of artificial light is deficient in one or more colors, this might explain why the effect is stronger in the blue and red channels and almost absent in green.

I'd sure like to get to the botton of this.

[saranugent]

lightwrangler, so would I!

Where can I read about "tracking"? I don't know about that.

Thanks,

[lightwrangler]

I did a quick search over at dpreview. I'm sure there's more info there if you care to do a little looking. If some of these are correct, the track noise pattern is enhanced by the presence of tungsten light and is correctable by Fuji. Have a look at these threads and do a little search of your own.


http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=3682874

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=4495175

[saranugent]

Hello and thanks for the links,

The first link looks just like the same type of waves i got. Everyone was guessing some kind of interference, magnetic, electrical, radio, ??, which may be the answer.

However, I wasn't up on a tower with a bunch of antennas. I can't imagine anything out of the "normal" where I took these photos, and the problem happened on a random basis throughout the photos taken that day. This was a covered arena - sort of out in the country - no microwave ovens, no antennas, no big power sources.

I wonder if some S2's are more likely to exhibit this behavior than others. Like, I'm wondering if the sensitivity is within this camera body itself.

Seems to be a relatively rare occurance in general - guess I'm one of the "lucky" owners.

Sara

[steve bingham]

I still haven't seen the pictures, but florescent bulbs vibrate at 60 cycles a second. Could this be florescent light relative to a multiple of 1/60 of a second shutter speed? I can tell you flat out that general rf shouldn't affect the camera. I read the links. What a bunch of hooey. Especially the expert opinion that ALL radio and TV transmissions are reduced to 1/10 their power at night. Only AM radio stations switch to lower power at night. I am in the business. I own KRIM-FM.

Also, this light theory would also explain why the pattern is strongest in the red channel. Just guessing. What happens in plain daylight? Of the thousands of pictures I have taken I have never seen this. But then again, I have never shot under floresents.

[saranugent]

The lighting was not flourescent - It was the same lighting both days -same location. Most of the weird stuff happened on the second day. The clear photos are perfectly clear with no hint of this pattern. It's either bad - or not there at all. I can't imagine that it's the light causing this.

The light was lots of daylight coming in under a high arena roof, mixed with my flash and some big round lights with reflectors high in the ceiling - I've photographed in this building before with film camera and the lights appear fairly natural. Definitely not flourescent. The only reason I know of for it being worst in the red and blue channels is that is where most noise is worse. Green is usually clear.
I wish you could access the picture, Steve - it's in the gallery on this site, and I did try to email it to you. I would be happy to again email it, if you can get it past your virus software.

I still think it's something weird that happens in this camera, rather than from outside source. I have no training in this electrical stuff, though.

[Europa_714]

In the rare case that you have not already tested this camera in this way;

I have some background in automotive electronics, and borderline diode problems have caused many gremlins in automotive PCMs

You said you were using a flash, built in? external? either way, the flash units have lots of voltage and must have good diode protection from back-feeding into camera. If you can determine if this only happens with flash, or flash enabled, maybe you can narrow it down to that camera system.

[DragonRich]

Had to post my two cents here!

Last week I picked up my own S2 Pro (love the camera). I experienced a weird pattern on my photo's as well. They weren't evident when I previewed the images though. After inititially considering returning the camera, I decided to try downloading the images using my CF reader instead of the Firewire port on the camera. The images were PERFECT!!

Somehow, downloading the images on my machine caused them to have a weird pattern on them. Haven't experimented with the USB port as yet, but if this problem continues I WILL return the camera for replacement!

You didn't mention in your post if you are using the camera for downloading or not, but try using a media reader and see if you are getting the same results. I thought I had lost some images but it turns out the images were fine, the camera was creating the errors on download (Firewire)!

[DragonRich]

It seems that there is some debate about the compatibility of Fuji camera's and Compact Flash. Several users seem to have problems with varying types of CF cards.

Perhaps the problem you have (and the one I had) are related to the fact that we are using CF cards. I can't explain why some have this problem and others do not as it doesn't seem to be related to a particular brand of CF memory.

For more info:

http://www.stevesforums.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6527

[steve bingham]

I use a 1 gig IBM microdrive with zero problems. They can be had for around $200. The price has really dropped. That's an interesting concept. Not all CF II cards work in all cameras. Some have problems. Not smart enough to know why.

[steve bingham]

I can also see a firewire problem if your hard drive is REALLY slow. I have seen the opposite, where my Seagate 15,000 rpm SCSI overloads other portable hard drives when transferring data and produces faulty files. Never happens the other way around. Dpreview.com has TESTED the camera with the IBM microdrive with no problems - as have many others including myself.

[DragonRich]

Reading your post (and others) is making me think I should give the Microdrive a chance. I'm hesitant because I think the CF cards would just be more stable (no moving parts). I haven't heard of any SIGNIFICANT complaints from anyone using the Microdrive (MD) though.

Since the cost of a MD is definitely lower than that of a CF of the same size, is there any real reason why they aren't more popular? :confused:

[bjnicholls]

The Microdrive is much more delicate and requires careful handling - it's a tiny hard drive with moving parts - than a solid-state CF card. The drive has altitude peformance issues as well; at high altitude the air may not be thick enough to float the read/write head.

I've been using a 1Gig Microdrive without any problem for several months. With the price of solid-state media as low as it is now, it's not such an easy decision to go with a Microdrive. When I bought mine, the price difference put the Microdrive at half the price or less of solid state cards.

[saranugent]

Just a quick update on my "odd glitch".

I've taken about 260 photos with the same setup now - camera, flash, battery packs, and have yet to get a repeat of the wavy files.

So no news, but the camera seems to work most of the time - with my setup of the Digital Camera Battery, Vivitar 283 flash and both the Kingston and Viking 512 compact flash cards.

The mystery continues with no answer - but at least it isn't active right now. Does that make me feel secure ? Well, NO. I still wish I know what was wrong.

However, wanted to add to the comments about compact flash: When I bought the camera, I was told that it is "picky" about the compact flash cards. For instance, my sales rep said that it doesn't like Lexar or Sandisk. I was advised to get the Kingston card instead. I've had no problems that I could attribute to either of these compact flash brands. They are not expensive, but seem to work well in the camera. I'd had the Viking cards for 2 years without problems - using them in my Olympus E10 - so I tried one for the S2. I've used 256 and 512 both in the S2 - just reformatting the one I had used in the E10. No problems.

[lightwrangler]

I too have an E10, and have only used Lexars in it. I have 2 128mb, 1 256mb and 1 512mb. They all work without a problem in the S2 as well. The old and the new seem to function just fine. I don't think that the problem you had is due to the CF card. However I must admit it is possible since I can't offer another explanation.

I am glad for you that it has ceased, but I would still like to know for sure what the problem was.

[bjnicholls]

I doubt the media had a relationship to the image problem. With an image file if the data is corrupted the file will either not open or it will have bad blocks, not something that sounds very analog from the description.

Has anyone been able to view Sarah's image files here? The rest of the gallery thumbnails and larger images view fine but these still refuse to load for me.

[lightwrangler]

I can see the image fine. Here's the link, it might help you.

http://www.s2pro.com/gallery/showgallery.php?thumb=1&cat=500&si=saranugent&perpage=12&sort=1&stype=&ppuser=