CaptJR
January 24th, 2005, 10:02 AM
Continuing this thread under the subject that it belongs. As I mentioned on my last reply when I got the spyder it solved my problem. I was printing on my Canon i470D and it looked good. So I thought I could finally justify getting a little better printer. I thought a six color printer should be good enough so I got the Canon i960. To my dismay, on my first print the color tone was way off. I thought since I got the new printer maybe I had to recalibrate the monitor, so I did. That didn't help. After fooling around I finally got a barely acceptable print by setting the 'intensity' setting in the printer driver between 25 and 30. It adjusts from -50 to 50. But the tone is still a little unpredictable. Seem like the red is off. I seem to be able fix it usually, but printing a test picture just to see what adjustments need made it a pain.
Do the printer companies expect every one that buys a printer and wants to print a picture to buy a monitor calibrator? I don't understand why people haven't made a fuss about this. It just shouldn't be that much trouble for the printer companies to make a setting that prints what you see when you look at a 'standard' CRT monitor.
I'm back for a quickie. Just thought I'd let you all in on an email I sent to Canon.
This is the question I just sent Canon. I'll let you know the reply I get.
"I'm a amateur photographer. (Fuji S2) I know all about monitor calibration and such. Me being an amateur, an expensive monitor calibration system is not in the cards. I don't understand why it is needed anyway. We are dealing with a standard here. I put a few pictures on a CD and brought it up on my 3 computers. (two desktop and one laptop) and 3 friends computers and 5 different computers at work. They looked the same on every computer except the laptop which displayed it a little darker than the rest. I went into the color management of the laptop, lightened it a little then they also looked exactly like the rest. I'm not talking brightness anyway, I'm talking color tone. (you might call it 'white balance' but that is actually a camera term.)
Using Photoshop I can get a picture looking like I want it to print, then it doesn't print that way. Especially facial tones. I just want the printer to print what a picture looks like on every monitor that is set to standard. And there is a standard or you couldn't go on the internet and see pictures that look the same on millions of computers.
Here is the question I'm asking before I purchase the i9900. Can it do this? Can I print a picture from my computer and have it look like what I see on any monitor when that picture is brought up? (any monitor that hasn't been fiddled with that is)
Because monitors have a standard I'm not looking for an answer that involves adjusting the monitor. I need your printer to adjust to a standard monitor. Canon was recommended to me so I got a little i470 to try out and the quality is excellent except for this issue. Is there a setting on your printers for this? I've tried several and haven't found it. That doesn't mean it's not there though.
I'd like an answer for the both printers, the i470 that I have now and the i9900. Well, I'm sure if the i470 will do it the i9900 will, but if the i470 won't and the i9900 will, I need to know that as well.
Thank you
John Roberts"
end email
Please don't bother to reply if you going to say 'monitors aren't standard'. I've owned at least 20 and seen hundreds. Out of the box they are pretty much the same as far as tones. I'm not even looking for exact anyway. I'm just looking for very close.
JR
1st reply by easternherp
JR,
I agree with you. I think that printers should be able to print to a screen standard. Yes they are all slightly different but I would think that most monitor companies have some kind of guide that they use to set up the monitor to.
It will be interesting to see if you get a response.
2nd reply by CaptJR
Well, I sort of knew that the reply I got from Canon was going to be exactly what I ask people not to reply with here. They said it was impossible. Here is there reply and below that is my reply back to them. What they don't seem to understand is that I'm talking about 'matching' not 'correctness'.
quote
Thank you for writing to us.
First you must have an understanding of how color is produced. A monitor
displays color by transmitting Red, Green and Blue (RGB) light into your
eyes. A printer uses existing light to reflect the colors on the paper
into your eyes. It is virtually impossible to have these two different
color types (transmissive and reflective) to match perfectly. Also, due
to its transmissive nature, the monitor is able to display a much wider
range of colors than a reflective product, such as a piece of paper with
ink on it.
Most monitors are not calibrated for correct color display out of the
box, they have to be calibrated to produce accurate colors. Adobe
PhotoShop includes a basic monitor calibrator to do this; it is the
Adobe Gamma utility. This utility is contained in the Control Panel in
Windows and on the Macintosh.
Some of the higher-end monitor calibrators use a suction cup device that
sticks on the monitor and reads a range of colors displayed on the
monitor. These hardware/software combination devices create much more
accurate color profiles than the strictly software solutions.
The type of color matching system (CMS) you use when printing your image
can greatly affect the output color of your image. For information on
how to use the various color management systems available, please check
the CMS user documentation or the web site of the manufacturer.
To ensure that the images your Canon Color printer produces are as close
as possible to the images displayed on your monitor you should do the
following:
Calibrate your monitor
Experiment with various Color Management Systems
Try using the ICM (Windows) or ColorSync (Macintosh) setting
To print a file saved in CMYK (cyan, magenta, yellow, and black) format
with accurate colors, you first need to convert the file to RGB format.
Your printer software automatically converts RGB files to your printer's
color format. To print with the correct colors, convert any CMYK-format
input files to RGB format before printing. For the best results, create
your original print files in the RGB color space.
Sincerely,
end quote
Here is my final reply to them.
First, I'm not looking for perfect, just very close. I suggest that you read this entire reply of mine although a reply from you is not necessary.
I'm attaching a jpg file. It is just a picture of red red, blue blue, green green, and yellow yellow. I include yellow because green is really a combination of blue and yellow. Taking for granted that you have normal vision, bring this file up on 20 or so, non-calibrated, out of the box monitors in your office. You will see that in every case the colors will look almost (if not) exactly the same. That is because there is a standard. (CRT 2.2 gamma)
You mention below most monitors are not calibrated for "correct color". Who cares about correct. If you want to call it incorrect fine, but because it is standard, they are consistently incorrect. Make a printer setting that will match they're consistently incorrect color. Joe public doesn't care if the code in the printer is saying to itself 'this isn't right'. All we want is WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get).
You mention below that it is 'impossible'. I'm fairly sure that figuring it out mathematically is impossible. It would probably have to be done manually experimenting with the printer code until you find the coding that when you print the file attached, you see red red (bright red), blue blue (bright blue), green green and yellow yellow (bright yellow). - Hint, work on red, blue and yellow. Green will take care of itself. Also, I think blue is the main culprit. If you print the above file you'll probably see more of a dark purplish blue on the print rather than blue.
Manage this, advertise it a little and I would think your printer sales would double at a minimum.
JR (there was an image attach here, just a RGB with also yellow, each 256,0,0)
3rd reply by HulaMike
JR, you're fighting a pointless battle. Canon's response was dead on accurate. Buy the Colorvision Spyder ($150) and calibrate your monitor. Buy or use whatever Canon ICC profile is available for your ink/paper choice using your printer and all your problems will disappear. You will be able to print WYSIWYG.
4th reply by easternherp
I am with JR on this. I think printers should be able to print a basic image with no colour management to match the screen. I am sure that most monitors supplied from the factory must have been set up and tested to a certain standard and therefor the printer should be able to be done the same. Yes the colours may not be correct (but who says correct is correct, some can see colours better than others).
Monitor calibration is relatively cheap now but printer profiling is still out of reach for most people and it is the printer/paper profile which is just as important.
5th reply by CaptJR
All I'm saying is that there is a standard on monitors. The first printer company that gets off their high horse and says 'OK, we will adapt to you instead of insisting that you adapt to us', is going to sell a lot of printers.
6th reply by CaptJR
Thank you Mike
I bought the Colorvision Spyder. After all the $'s spent on my photo business and the business didn't take off, I really didn't want to spend any more money. This was worth while and I thank you vary much Mike. My pictures are printing just fine now. Not perfect, but certainly good enough for me. As I said above I wasn't looking for perfect just vary good and that is what I'm getting. I guess printer profiling is what it takes to get perfect, but if I need to adjust a little without that, that's what I'll do.
I still think this shouldn't be necessary. As I said, there is a standard for monitors. For example the computer gaming industry counts on this standard. I know, because now that the Colorvision monitor profile loads at startup my games look a little funny. Except for Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004, it only looks funny when you access the in game menu. When going back and forth to the menu with the 'alt' key you can actually see the color profile change back and forth from normal to the colorvision profile. The monitor doesn't like the switching either, every now and then while in the flight sim the monitor will go nuts and get these wide blue vertical lines in it. When I exit the game they are still on the monitor and the only way to get rid of them is to reboot.
CaptJR
Do the printer companies expect every one that buys a printer and wants to print a picture to buy a monitor calibrator? I don't understand why people haven't made a fuss about this. It just shouldn't be that much trouble for the printer companies to make a setting that prints what you see when you look at a 'standard' CRT monitor.
I'm back for a quickie. Just thought I'd let you all in on an email I sent to Canon.
This is the question I just sent Canon. I'll let you know the reply I get.
"I'm a amateur photographer. (Fuji S2) I know all about monitor calibration and such. Me being an amateur, an expensive monitor calibration system is not in the cards. I don't understand why it is needed anyway. We are dealing with a standard here. I put a few pictures on a CD and brought it up on my 3 computers. (two desktop and one laptop) and 3 friends computers and 5 different computers at work. They looked the same on every computer except the laptop which displayed it a little darker than the rest. I went into the color management of the laptop, lightened it a little then they also looked exactly like the rest. I'm not talking brightness anyway, I'm talking color tone. (you might call it 'white balance' but that is actually a camera term.)
Using Photoshop I can get a picture looking like I want it to print, then it doesn't print that way. Especially facial tones. I just want the printer to print what a picture looks like on every monitor that is set to standard. And there is a standard or you couldn't go on the internet and see pictures that look the same on millions of computers.
Here is the question I'm asking before I purchase the i9900. Can it do this? Can I print a picture from my computer and have it look like what I see on any monitor when that picture is brought up? (any monitor that hasn't been fiddled with that is)
Because monitors have a standard I'm not looking for an answer that involves adjusting the monitor. I need your printer to adjust to a standard monitor. Canon was recommended to me so I got a little i470 to try out and the quality is excellent except for this issue. Is there a setting on your printers for this? I've tried several and haven't found it. That doesn't mean it's not there though.
I'd like an answer for the both printers, the i470 that I have now and the i9900. Well, I'm sure if the i470 will do it the i9900 will, but if the i470 won't and the i9900 will, I need to know that as well.
Thank you
John Roberts"
end email
Please don't bother to reply if you going to say 'monitors aren't standard'. I've owned at least 20 and seen hundreds. Out of the box they are pretty much the same as far as tones. I'm not even looking for exact anyway. I'm just looking for very close.
JR
1st reply by easternherp
JR,
I agree with you. I think that printers should be able to print to a screen standard. Yes they are all slightly different but I would think that most monitor companies have some kind of guide that they use to set up the monitor to.
It will be interesting to see if you get a response.
2nd reply by CaptJR
Well, I sort of knew that the reply I got from Canon was going to be exactly what I ask people not to reply with here. They said it was impossible. Here is there reply and below that is my reply back to them. What they don't seem to understand is that I'm talking about 'matching' not 'correctness'.
quote
Thank you for writing to us.
First you must have an understanding of how color is produced. A monitor
displays color by transmitting Red, Green and Blue (RGB) light into your
eyes. A printer uses existing light to reflect the colors on the paper
into your eyes. It is virtually impossible to have these two different
color types (transmissive and reflective) to match perfectly. Also, due
to its transmissive nature, the monitor is able to display a much wider
range of colors than a reflective product, such as a piece of paper with
ink on it.
Most monitors are not calibrated for correct color display out of the
box, they have to be calibrated to produce accurate colors. Adobe
PhotoShop includes a basic monitor calibrator to do this; it is the
Adobe Gamma utility. This utility is contained in the Control Panel in
Windows and on the Macintosh.
Some of the higher-end monitor calibrators use a suction cup device that
sticks on the monitor and reads a range of colors displayed on the
monitor. These hardware/software combination devices create much more
accurate color profiles than the strictly software solutions.
The type of color matching system (CMS) you use when printing your image
can greatly affect the output color of your image. For information on
how to use the various color management systems available, please check
the CMS user documentation or the web site of the manufacturer.
To ensure that the images your Canon Color printer produces are as close
as possible to the images displayed on your monitor you should do the
following:
Calibrate your monitor
Experiment with various Color Management Systems
Try using the ICM (Windows) or ColorSync (Macintosh) setting
To print a file saved in CMYK (cyan, magenta, yellow, and black) format
with accurate colors, you first need to convert the file to RGB format.
Your printer software automatically converts RGB files to your printer's
color format. To print with the correct colors, convert any CMYK-format
input files to RGB format before printing. For the best results, create
your original print files in the RGB color space.
Sincerely,
end quote
Here is my final reply to them.
First, I'm not looking for perfect, just very close. I suggest that you read this entire reply of mine although a reply from you is not necessary.
I'm attaching a jpg file. It is just a picture of red red, blue blue, green green, and yellow yellow. I include yellow because green is really a combination of blue and yellow. Taking for granted that you have normal vision, bring this file up on 20 or so, non-calibrated, out of the box monitors in your office. You will see that in every case the colors will look almost (if not) exactly the same. That is because there is a standard. (CRT 2.2 gamma)
You mention below most monitors are not calibrated for "correct color". Who cares about correct. If you want to call it incorrect fine, but because it is standard, they are consistently incorrect. Make a printer setting that will match they're consistently incorrect color. Joe public doesn't care if the code in the printer is saying to itself 'this isn't right'. All we want is WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get).
You mention below that it is 'impossible'. I'm fairly sure that figuring it out mathematically is impossible. It would probably have to be done manually experimenting with the printer code until you find the coding that when you print the file attached, you see red red (bright red), blue blue (bright blue), green green and yellow yellow (bright yellow). - Hint, work on red, blue and yellow. Green will take care of itself. Also, I think blue is the main culprit. If you print the above file you'll probably see more of a dark purplish blue on the print rather than blue.
Manage this, advertise it a little and I would think your printer sales would double at a minimum.
JR (there was an image attach here, just a RGB with also yellow, each 256,0,0)
3rd reply by HulaMike
JR, you're fighting a pointless battle. Canon's response was dead on accurate. Buy the Colorvision Spyder ($150) and calibrate your monitor. Buy or use whatever Canon ICC profile is available for your ink/paper choice using your printer and all your problems will disappear. You will be able to print WYSIWYG.
4th reply by easternherp
I am with JR on this. I think printers should be able to print a basic image with no colour management to match the screen. I am sure that most monitors supplied from the factory must have been set up and tested to a certain standard and therefor the printer should be able to be done the same. Yes the colours may not be correct (but who says correct is correct, some can see colours better than others).
Monitor calibration is relatively cheap now but printer profiling is still out of reach for most people and it is the printer/paper profile which is just as important.
5th reply by CaptJR
All I'm saying is that there is a standard on monitors. The first printer company that gets off their high horse and says 'OK, we will adapt to you instead of insisting that you adapt to us', is going to sell a lot of printers.
6th reply by CaptJR
Thank you Mike
I bought the Colorvision Spyder. After all the $'s spent on my photo business and the business didn't take off, I really didn't want to spend any more money. This was worth while and I thank you vary much Mike. My pictures are printing just fine now. Not perfect, but certainly good enough for me. As I said above I wasn't looking for perfect just vary good and that is what I'm getting. I guess printer profiling is what it takes to get perfect, but if I need to adjust a little without that, that's what I'll do.
I still think this shouldn't be necessary. As I said, there is a standard for monitors. For example the computer gaming industry counts on this standard. I know, because now that the Colorvision monitor profile loads at startup my games look a little funny. Except for Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004, it only looks funny when you access the in game menu. When going back and forth to the menu with the 'alt' key you can actually see the color profile change back and forth from normal to the colorvision profile. The monitor doesn't like the switching either, every now and then while in the flight sim the monitor will go nuts and get these wide blue vertical lines in it. When I exit the game they are still on the monitor and the only way to get rid of them is to reboot.
CaptJR